Spectacular...This mare is dancing!!!

[stacey]

thats just beautiful

[devotee]

Yeah, tinypony, Anky's routine blew my mind, too. The cadence is so perfect! So, do we all have our tickets for the WEG at Kentucky Horse Park in 2010? Nothing will keep me away!

Btw, tail-switching is a sign of annoyance, usually. It's not really a good thing.

[tinypony]

devotee i was really hoping to go to that actually - can you already get tickets?

[devotee]

Check KHP's site. I do believe you can! (You might want to wait a bit, since they are redesigning the site in anticipation of the WEG. I haven't looked lately, though. Maybe the new site is up now.)

[tinypony]

ok i know this thread is a bit "dead" but i was just reading through all the posts and i want to answer a few questions/remarks that were made. i am by no means a professional but i feel that i have learned a lot about dressage and also the biomechanics of the horse and rider. lauriebarbaro had said that they can't imagine the horse responding to a rider's cue THAT quickly. while some horses may very well learn the music (they're certainly smart enough) they're still largely dependant on their rider. the olympic dressage riders are insanely quick with their signals and they're also very sharp and the horses are very in tune with them. because everything is sooooo precise, the horses have the ability to respond that quickly. also, the rider does not ask the horse to canter at C and expect the horse to canter right then - there is a moment of preparation when the horse's weight/balance is shifted to allow for a rapid transition.

also, pattydukes had some very valid questions about how the horse is trained to do that. actually, all the movements seen in dressage are normal movements that the horses only have to be guided into - they're not completely new to the horse. for example, the passage and piaffe are typical for a horse to used in a stressed enviornment - now you won't see ranch horses going along in piaffe when they're nervous but my mare who is only competing 1st level dressage (lifetimes away from those videos) will piaffe when she's nervous. another example is the canter pirouettes. i have seen MANY horses pirouetting in the pastures when playing with other horses. the piaffe can be acheived by extreme collection in the horse where the pirouettes (also started with a large amount of collection in the canter) are acheived by simply moving the horse's shoulders over (something very simple at that point in a horse's training) so for your other question pattydukes, the horse can actually do all of these movements on their own but in an arena, they're being asked to perform them all by the rider.

pattydukes had also mentioned something about the tail-swishing and then devotee had said it had to do with annoyance - while it is defiately a sign of annoyance, in upper level dressage it probably isn't (or it isn't always i guess i should say). the horse's tail is very important in something like flying changes because the tail is an extension of the back. all of the vertebrae are connected right into the tailbone so when the horse changes the bend in their spine and ribcage to make the lead change, the tail swishes along to the motion.

hopefully you guys found this information helpful. i just wanted to clear some things up where i could :-)

[Bells]

Go to YouTube and type 'Rollkur' along with 'Anky' and/or 'Hyperflexion' to find out more about the methods that SOME of these riders use to get the results they want.

Rollkur is a method of training where the horse's chin is tucked to its chest, the horse cannot see where he is going, his cervical vertebra are stretched to the max.

Here in the UK it's becoming more and more of an issue. The people who were once moved to tears watching the likes of Anky are now moved to tears for different reasons. Watching tails swish, jaws tense and riders leaning back while nodding like jack-in-the-boxes. Horses are restricted in the shoulder and back and are inhibited from their natural action. While it looks good to an untrained eye it looks harsh when compared with a true classical rider.

Here we are aiming to have a neutral seat, the lightest of contact and build movements from groundwork - aiming for the more elegant, natural and enlightened type of classical dressage. If only the judges at the top end of the dressage world would realise the damage that rollkur is doing

[devotee]

Yes, you're absolutely right about the tempis and the tail adjustments, and not ALL tail switching is due to annoyance. Unless it is connected to the anatomy of a specific move, though, it usually indicates resistance.

[tinypony]

i think the issue of "too much" will always be an issue in the dressage world. while anky rides with her horse's necks very tucked, they are truly connected from the hind (in my opinion) also, the gray mare whose video was listed was certainly "round" but she was obviously very free in her movement. there will always be those who think tying the horse's head in looks the best but in the longrun you'll ruin the horse. i knwo of someone (or heard about them rather) who sent her horse to a european dressage trainer for some training and she had to put the horse down because he broke his neck from side reins being too tight - his neck muscles literally ripped the bones apart - he was only 6 :-( it's truly horrible the lengths to which some people will go to achieve what it being judged on top - people just have to realize if we stop pushing the horse's to these levels the competitors and judges will catch on.

[Bells]

I absolutely agree, the lengths that some go to are too far by miles but when the judge sees that the horse is responsive (doing as it's told), working from behind and offering correct tempo then the judge will mark high regardless of the training methods used to get them there. Anky does not ride her tests in Rollkur, she will work the horse in for an hour beforehand with its mouth next to its shoulder and then regain a 'normal', more acceptable contact in the ring.

It's impossible to be free in movement while being so restricted and it completely removes any respect I once had for the people who choose to use these methods.

Don't even get me started on the driving seat and chair seats that some of these professionals ride with!!!!

[patty dukes]

I was reading all of the posts and I don't know what half of the stuff said means but I really thought the horse tucked her head in like that to be pretty or proud. I have a TWH stallion that will prance around the field like that. This is the first time I had ever seen anything like this and I think it is very amazing a horse can even do that. I was wondering about the horses joints. I really did think she was switching her tail because she looks like she was having fun. I couldn't imagine anyone hurting a horse just to make them do dressage.
I have 2 horses and a new foal I have learned alot of things about the care of horses and that you have to let them know that they cannot run over you but I don't know what all of the terms are like canter. I don't know what driving seat or chair seat is. I don't have a goal in mind for my horses as far as any sports go. I just like their company. I was one of the little girls who always a horse and didn't get one till I was over 25.
I am learning something everyday and marestare is a HUGE help

Thank You

[Bells]

pattydukes said:

I was reading all of the posts and I don't know what half of the stuff said means but I really thought the horse tucked her head in like that to be pretty or proud. I have a TWH stallion that will prance around the field like that. This is the first time I had ever seen anything like this and I think it is very amazing a horse can even do that. I was wondering about the horses joints. I really did think she was switching her tail because she looks like she was having fun. I couldn't imagine anyone hurting a horse just to make them do dressage.
I have 2 horses and a new foal I have learned alot of things about the care of horses and that you have to let them know that they cannot run over you but I don't know what all of the terms are like canter. I don't know what driving seat or chair seat is. I don't have a goal in mind for my horses as far as any sports go. I just like their company. I was one of the little girls who always a horse and didn't get one till I was over 25.
I am learning something everyday and marestare is a HUGE help

Thank You

Ok, sorry for the technical jargon, you have the right idea, ask questions and make your own mind up.

Horses do tuck their heads in of their own accord - a stallion passing mares, mares passing stallions, an excitable gelding, a worked up horse, playing and prancing in the field etc BUT the horse has freedom to hold his/her head like this for short periods and while in 'self carriage'. Self carriage is when all the horses muscles and bones are comfortable and relaxed and he can carry himself in what looks to be a beautiful rounded outline (shape). To force a horse (by a piece of metal in his mouth, draw reins or any other mechanical aid) to hold his chin to his chest for extended periods isn't on the same scale as your boy looking pretty and showing off to his buddies.

Horses take 60% of their weight on their front legs and 40% on their back legs, like a 2 wheel drive car. To get the horse to carry themselves and to carry their rider we must teach them to round their back and use their back legs to propell them forward, this makes them carry our weight better and it allows their front legs to be free. When the front end is free and the neck relaxed the horse can soften his jaw and he can respond with lightness to the contact on the bit.

A hunting seat or chair seat is a term used for a rider who uses an English saddle. The rider should be in a straight line from ear through shoulder, hips and ankle. From the side the rider should look like she is stood up with her knees slightly bent. A chair seat is when the rider looks like she is sat in a chair ... feet and knees forward, bottom back in the saddle like an armchair. The pressure of sitting like this causes the horse to really feel the rider on his back, he responds by going "ouch" and dipping his back in the middle.

If the rider can sit nice and straight, keep a light contact with the bit, encourage the horse to round his back work from behind and hold himself in self carriage then the natural 'outline will look very nice indeed. The horse will be relaxed and he will work freely through the shoulder and hips. The tail may swish occasionally and the ears will wiggle, the horse's head will drop a couple of inches and he will gently lick and chew at the bit.

Riders who want their horses to 'look' as if they are in a nice 'outline' train the horse to work with its chin tucked in to its neck. To an untrained eye it might look nice but it's really not comfortable or safe for the horse (can cause horrific injuries to the spine and neck) and it's the wrong way of going about getting a nice 'shape'. The 'helicopter tail', the jabbing ears and a chomping jaw along with a stifled movement will give away the horse's emotions.

[patty dukes]

I learn something new everyday!!!!!!!

thanks.

[darbyponygirl]

That is beautiful and so amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[darbyponygirl]

I actually have apony who can do those moves!!!!!!