Allison
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Post by Allison on Mar 27, 2007 2:10:30 GMT -5
If a mare becomes in foal with twins will every pregnancy thereafter be with twin foals too?
When you all say "pinch off a twin" how exactly do they do that? I mean is it done with medication or does a vet physically have to go in there and do something to cause one twin to die?
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Post by onthedeck on Mar 27, 2007 2:46:27 GMT -5
Mares that twin have a higher incidence of becoming pregnant with twins with each pregnancy, but that is not an absolute. They double ovulate, the embryo does not split into identical twins like it can in humans.
When a vet piches a twin he does just that. Goes in rectally, isolates one vesicle with the help of an ultrasound & literally pinches one off & destroys the vessel. Think of it as squishing a grape between 2 fingers. It is just like doing that.
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Post by SommerPonyFarm on Mar 27, 2007 4:29:46 GMT -5
I am not sure if I am allowed to refer to Sassy's delivery in particular. If it is inappropriate to do so, please feel free to delete this post.
When foal A was being delivered, it was a malpresentation in which the foal's head was turned to the side. I know there were several attempts to turn the foal's head, but they didn't get it turned in time. My questions is this: Was it more difficult to get this foal's head turned because foal B was behind foals A, being pushed into the back side of foal A or is this a normally hard malpresentation to correct in the first place?
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bndranch
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Post by bndranch on Mar 27, 2007 12:09:40 GMT -5
Time out for a second. Vets are humans too. They make mistakes like all of us do. Don't be so quick to blame the vet entirely. Mistakes happen. When twins are detected, no matter what stage, whatever steps should be taken to ensure that the pregnancy is a singleton. Sometimes that means terminating if it's late term. I agree and totally understand this statement, but there are times when we jump to the conclusion that it was the OWNERS fault that they let a twin pregnancy continue blah blah blah, however it can be the vet's fault as well. It is also the vets fault when they aren't thoro and check BOTH HORNS which is the case that happened with what I was speaking about above. Also someone spoke about twins would not be able to be found that late in pregnancy is I think is a little off. I had my mare ultra-sounded in her 6th month to check for placentitis (which she had with her first foal in 05). My vet was able to see the foal and able to feel the very top of his head during the 6th month. Me being nosey I asked if we could tell the sex and she said that at this point we couldn't but still she was able to see and feel my foal. Granted my case was not checking for twins but still non the less she could feel adn see the foal. Like I said no expert by ANYMEANS LOL, but this is what I have delt with through friends and personal expirence with ultra-sounding my mares.
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Post by onthedeck on Mar 27, 2007 12:38:51 GMT -5
I hear you BND. I guess I'm a little bit quicker to defend the vet since I work in veterinary medicine.
You can ultrasound to check for twins late term. It usually involves going to the clinic & using a high powered u/s machiene but it can be done.
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Allison
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Post by Allison on Mar 27, 2007 12:51:10 GMT -5
Thank you onthedeck. I guess the term really is self-explanatory. It must be a very emotional and difficult decision to make for both owner and vet. But if it comes down to saving the life of the mare than I can see how important it is to pinch a foal or foals off.
I hate to ask another stupid question but what exactly are the horns?
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Post by risingrainbow on Mar 27, 2007 13:11:10 GMT -5
I am not sure if I am allowed to refer to Sassy's delivery in particular. If it is inappropriate to do so, please feel free to delete this post. When foal A was being delivered, it was a malpresentation in which the foal's head was turned to the side. I know there were several attempts to turn the foal's head, but they didn't get it turned in time. My questions is this: Was it more difficult to get this foal's head turned because foal B was behind foals A, being pushed into the back side of foal A or is this a normally hard malpresentation to correct in the first place? This is a good question. I've never actually seen a mummified foal but have friends who have encountered them. These foals die fairly early in the gestation period, only knowing the amount of development in the mummified foal would tell when. Usually they are crowded out by the larger twin and crushed. They are normally very small and shriveled up. I would think considering the huge size of the second foal it is reasonable to assume that there was a big difference in how much of the placenta was feeding this mis-fortunate foal. This may have been a contributing factor in it's demise. (The proportion of placenta each twin had providing it nutrients is another intriguing aspect affecting the outcome of twins.) This twin that was mummified was very small. I believe someone referred to it being about the size of a football as they observed Laurietta removing it. Just knowing the size of the remaining foal speaks to the fact this twin would have to have been very small. The small size of it would suggest that it had little, if any impact on the presentation of the then surviving twin. I think the size of the second twin certainly could have had a lot to do with the presentation. At 148 pounds the foal was the size of a normal foal and a half. To accommodate a foal that size trying to reposition inside a mare whose body was built to approximate a100 pound foal has to be a huge part of the problem. I just can't even imagine the complexities of trying to reposition a foal that large either for mother nature or human intervention. Normally the foal normally turns and moves up into the birth canal soon before parturition. With a foal of this size, I don't even think that would be possible. My guess is it's safe to assume that the foal may have been in this position for weeks. In this particular instance, the twin that was malpresented had it's head and neck turned back. I point this out because a head and neck combination would increase the degree of difficulty involved in correcting the position. Either one of these issues, the extreme size of the foal or the malpresenntation was enough to cause this dystocia.The two of them combined increased the problems exponentially.
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Post by onthedeck on Mar 27, 2007 13:31:00 GMT -5
It must be a very emotional and difficult decision to make for both owner and vet. But if it comes down to saving the life of the mare than I can see how important it is to pinch a foal or foals off. Actually, it is not an emotional or difficult decision for a lot of owners & vets. The mare's life should always come first. Most often the mare will take care of one of the twins herself early on. I had a mare do just that a few years ago. She twinned but on the 16 day u/s one looked to be resorbing. We checked again at 25 days & the second vesicle was nearly gone. Another check at 30 days revealed one healthy embryo.
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Post by mythicfriesians on Mar 27, 2007 13:36:54 GMT -5
On the note of the malpresented foal,
I ask this because I honestly don't know, but it was a thought that had presented itself to me.
Most of the twin foals I have seen survive have started out incredibly weak. Could the lack of muscle development have made respositioning the head and neck that much harder? If the neck muscles were not strong enough to keep the foal's head and neck in position, I mean. Then every time the foal started to enter the birth canal, the head and neck would end up sliding to the side and around.
I don't know if this was part of the problem or not. I am also wondering, are malpresentations more common in twin foals? I would think so, both because of the crowded uterus and the lack of muscle development. Does anyone know the statistics?
Allison
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Post by risingrainbow on Mar 27, 2007 14:01:47 GMT -5
The problem with twins is there aren't a lot of statistics. They're rare so they can't really do studies on them. Studies make statistics. The issue of room inside the mare seems to be the major factor affecting twins presenting correctly. With my twins, I couldn't even get my arm into the mare to affect position. There was just no more room. Frow what I have found most twins that are born with malpresentations do not survive. One or both will be lost and sometimes the mare too. I don't know that muscle tone is an issue. It would seem to me lack of muscle tone would make it easier to manipulate but I'm not a physical therapist so I'm not sure. But with lack of muscle tone comes lack of resistance. The twins I have been exposed to were not weak from lact of muscle tone. They were weak from the trauma of their births. Most overcame that weakness in a short amount of time, no more than two days. Other types of weaknesses in twins can be from health issues surrounding incomplete development of major organs etc. since many will present with symptoms of prematurity. I did a post on my blog with information about basics in twins and covers these issues. risingrainbow.blogspot.com/2007/02/some-basics-about-twin-arabian-foals.html I don't think the malpresentation of the second foal in this particular case was affected by its status as a twin.
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Post by risingrainbow on Mar 27, 2007 14:08:41 GMT -5
Thank you onthedeck. I guess the term really is self-explanatory. It must be a very emotional and difficult decision to make for both owner and vet. But if it comes down to saving the life of the mare than I can see how important it is to pinch a foal or foals off. I hate to ask another stupid question but what exactly are the horns? There are no stupid questions. We all had to learn at some time. Here's a link with diagrahm caltest.vet.upenn.edu/repropath/FReview/picture.htm
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wolfdenfarm
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Post by wolfdenfarm on Mar 27, 2007 14:32:27 GMT -5
You can ultrasound to check for twins late term. It usually involves going to the clinic & using a high powered u/s machiene but it can be done. Just to clarify - I am the one that said that it is difficult to check for twins late term because of the position of the uterus, but later in my post mentioned that it could ba done with a bigger machine than the portable ones vets carry around.
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Post by Blacklabs on Mar 27, 2007 15:27:53 GMT -5
I have a question about the ultrasound machines the Vet use, do any of them have the new 3D ultrasounds that they use using on humans? I'm assuming they do not as they are very acurate and only hope that is something coming in the future for the animal world.
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Allison
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Post by Allison on Mar 27, 2007 15:42:54 GMT -5
Thank you MiKael that explained a lot!
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Post by heathercentralfl on Mar 27, 2007 15:54:23 GMT -5
Our mares are US at 14 days 25 days and 60 days(sex check), at 14 something can be done about twins easily and much more affordable and life saving and season saving(mare can be re-bred if pregnacy is lost all together) at 25 days heart beat is visible so if there is still twins you can see if one is alive and one is not viable(after 30 days a mare will not usually come back into heat for the season that is why dealing with it under 25 days isimportant), if both still active try again, another check within days to check then up to 120 days university by us and specialists clinic will do saline inj into the heart of one, at that point if not successful the precnancy is terminated . There is no sense in continuing as resulting foals can be limited to pasture orniment statue ( not in every case) as much time and money that is put into horses you have to remove the heart and think with your brain sometimes .
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