|
Post by Regret on Mar 25, 2007 23:33:13 GMT -5
Since so many of us witnessed what happened with Sassy and her twins on cam, I wanted to create a thread that was informational on the subject of twins in equines. Please feel free to ask questions if you want them answered and established breeders, please feel free to add your input. This thread is inspired by this post by Darlyn from Fairview Horse Center, which was buried and then deleted in the original Sassy thread:
Horse breeding is not for the faint of heart-- things happen and mistakes are made, but every situation is one that we can inevitably learn from.
THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO PLACE BLAME. If you feel like you need to make a post that is blaming anyone or negative in context, it will be promptly deleted. This is not the time nor the place for that kind of posting.
This is about learning, and Mare Stare is the kind of community that will help newcomers learn what they are watching. Breeding is full of joys and wonders, but also tragedy. We can learn from EVERY experience, and I want to take this opportunity to find an educational venue for the posts that may have been deleted during the fiasco that this board endured by many people who didn't understand fully what was going on. This is the place for that.
Please, ask questions and learn from this experience. Breeders and owners-- please share your experiences and your expertise.
Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by risingrainbow on Mar 26, 2007 0:37:24 GMT -5
I thought I knew a lot about twins before my mare had them. I found out I knew piratically nothing. But I've made it my business to learn everything I can since then. Watching the thing with Sassy unfold, it was clear to me that there was a lot of misinformation out there. That and there were many assumptions that were made along the way. This quote above for example about dealing with one twin with an injection. I've not been able to find any information on the Internet or from talking with a number of vets about any kind of mid term or late term method of disposing of one twin by injection or any other means and preserving the second foal. It was also suggested on the old thread that the mare should have had an abortion when the twins were detected at 6.5 months. That, too, is not an option that I am aware of, nor could I find information on the web. To the contrary, I found information suggesting mid or late term abortion is dangerous in the mare. The major vet hospitals here would not be involved in such a procedure. The other thing that is very important to consider here is what one person has available to them for resources may not be available to another person. I live near a large metropolitan area, there are two major vet schools within a 5-6 hour driving distance. I know from personal experience that those schools don't have much experience with twins. There is a procedure to eliminate twins that involves a needle being placed into the brain of one of the twins and aspirating the matter. That procedure must be done early in the first trimester. And neither of these schools vet hospitals does this technique. To my knowledge it is available in Canada somewhere but nowhere within traveling distance here. I've been doing a post for a number of days now on my blog trying to set the record straight about what happened with Sassy. Sorting through the facts and the things that got twisted and misinterpreted. risingrainbow.blogspot.com/2007/03/sassy-and-lauriettas-story-tradegy-or.html Please read the blog and then ask questions here if you have them. Also, on the first thread someone posted a great link about why you would want to breed a mare with a history of twins. I thought I had saved it to my favorites but can't find it. Would sure appreciate that link. It was most useful in explaining the vets point of view on breeding a mare like Sassy. I'd love to have it for a resource.
|
|
|
Post by saddlebredlover on Mar 26, 2007 0:54:05 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by risingrainbow on Mar 26, 2007 1:23:38 GMT -5
Thank you saddlebredlover for the link.
I forgot to add in my post in response to this "IF you find a twin late term, then the mare owner needs to make sure they take the mare to a facility so vets are on site to be able to assist immediately to save the foal(s) and mare. These facilities are equipped to be able to sedate the mare to stop contractions from constantly slamming the foal to the back, blocking the small opening, raise her back end to allow gravity to shift the foal away from the tract to give room to reposition the foal(s) for safe delivery."
This assumes that all of us have this kind of treatment at our disposal. I can assure you, that's not the case. Many breeders are located too remote for such services. And the services are only available in a limited number of facilities because there is not that big a call for them. It's not available to me I've checked into it.
And the other issue here is finances. Not everyone can afford the expense of this type of care. I had an emergency fund when my twins were born. It took all of that fund, all of my show fund and I borrowed to pay the bills for the twins. The major facilites that could require that type of care require payment immediately, and some of them in cash. Costs are different in different parts of the country.Just the four days my twins were in the hospital cost nearly $4000 and had to be paid half up front the other half when I picked them up. That did not cover all of the things they wanted to do with them. The additional tests and x-rays were another several hundred more dollars. Colic surgery here starts at $10,000.
If you start saying the people who can breed horses are those that can afford to pay cash for catostrophic vet bills, then what you are saying is only the rich can breed horses at all. I don't think that's someplace we really want to go. But it is what the mandate from the quote above implies.
My feeling about this is it's really easy to sit back and second guess the decisions made when you don't even know all of the facts that relate particularly to that person and their available resources. It's not nearly so easy to live it.
|
|
Allison
Trainer
Addicted Stare Marer
Posts: 3,591
|
Post by Allison on Mar 26, 2007 1:26:01 GMT -5
Thank you for creating this thread! I know so many of, especially me, had so many questions about twin foals in Sassy's threads. I never even knew that a horse could give birth to twins! The first I had heard about it was when I watched Heiress foal and noticed MiKael's website and blog and then I found the little miracles Trouble and Surprise! It's such a fascinating thing in horsey life but definitely very scary. I will definitely go read those articles to learn more about the miracles that can happen and sadly the tragic realities that sometimes also happen too.
I have learned so much from the MS website and I am very grateful to have found it. I get to live my dreams of owning horses through you all and witness such blessed events. Although there have been some sad losses I have also seen I feel blessed to have met everyone on here and to have you all in my life.
|
|
|
Post by Blacklabs on Mar 26, 2007 8:06:06 GMT -5
|
|
devotee
Global Moderator
Posts: 3,723
|
Post by devotee on Mar 26, 2007 10:47:24 GMT -5
When I saw this thread posted last night, I was hoping that MiKael would be an early voice on the subject, so I'm very glad to see her posts this morning. She has authority both from firsthand experience and comprehensive research. Beyond that, MiKael is level-headed and insightful, so I am always grateful for her stories and perspectives.
I cannot say anything about the specific case of Sassy because I was away during the foaling and the development of her entire thread. But I do have firsthand (traumatic!) experience with twins and I want to reiterate some of MiKael's points. I, too, live in a remote area that has difficult access to equine medical facilities and, frankly, lacks good vets and farriers. It's an ongoing nightmare. My thinking (and thinking and thinking) on the matter has always concluded that I need to maintain good relations with "local" vets who can get here in an emergency, so I'm partly stuck with their level of competency, at least for routine matters. My thinking has changed as a consequence of my twins experience and a couple more veterinary disasters after that, and I now use a vet who is 2 hours away . . . and my heart has permanently relocated into my throat. One thing about horses is that they will provide life with a steady stream of dilemmas . . . .
The local vet I used at the time of my twins disaster refused to ultra-sound my mare during the window for that after breeding. I begged him to do it on 2 occasions within the window. He told me to "play the odds." (He later told me, when the same mare became fatally afflicted with laminitis 10 years later, that I had to "play the hand you're dealt." Let me just say this: if your vet starts using gambling analogies, get a different vet.) During her pregnancy, I asked 2 other vets who happened to be on the farm where I boarded at the time to check her for twins, because I was worried about her size. Every local vet trivialized my concerns and told me to not to worry.
Ten months into her pregnancy, my (maiden) mare went into labor and foaled out a beautiful stillborn filly. As I stood there in her stall, sobbing and wondering what had gone wrong, she went down again, leapt to her feet, and shot out a second stillborn filly, answering my questions. Both fillies were perfect for their stage of development, although the second was smaller than the first. Neither had mummified. In retrospect, I guess I was very lucky that the delivery was so unproblematic. My ONLY concern at the time was for my mare. The experience was so traumatic that, after a couple more unsuccessful attempts to get her in foal, I gave it up. This mare was so precious to me that I would not put her at any kind of risk, and it was clear that continuing to breed her would involve some extra degree of danger to her.
My situation was not comparable to the one in question, because I was unable to ascertain that my mare was pregnant with twins. The villain in my case was veterinary irresponsibility. I don't really know what I can contribute to this conversation, other than a general lament about crises created by equine veterinary vicissitudes. Many horse owners are located in remote areas, operating small barns on shoestring budgets. These are all strikes against us, when it comes to procuring veterinary care. I know that horse vets lead difficult lives. I pay my bills and take meticulous care of my horses, but many in my area do not. Veterinary practices are shaped by those bad experiences, and I try to understand things from their perspective. I am an avid researcher and I keep well informed about every conceivable peril to my horses. I am competent and meticulous at performing ordinary horse care, including typical (and some untypical) injuries and illnesses. I am careful to make my expectations of aggressive veterinary care clear to my vets. But, in the end, I am stuck with what I can get.
MiKael's efforts to sift through all the contradictory information and lessons of experience are probably the the most comprehensive and insightful I've seen on the subject of twins. The dilemmas are rarely simple, and the remedies are rarely formulaic. I think that everybody can probably agree that it is unwise to allow a pregnancy with twins to proceed (I would NOT have done it!), but we are lucky if circumstances permit us to make that choice.
(And I am not a person who is comfortable relying on luck, but there it is.)
|
|
|
Post by cookiesmom on Mar 26, 2007 11:52:55 GMT -5
Thanks folks for all the info. I really appreciate it. I applauded Laurietta's brave efforts with Sassy that day. We humans just cannot control for all the variables--twin pregnancies not discovered "soon enough" or not at all, ice storms and plain ole mother nature. I followed Rising Rainbows twins last year after I found out about them, was pleased to see a link this year and checked on them again, not too long before they were separated from each other. Mikael was such a wonderful caretaker of all of them. Glad to see she has posted here too! Keep up the great work all of you breeders and thanks for letting us into your barns. I have owned two mares now, one for six years and one for 9 months. I didn't and won't be breeding them because of my concern about the over population problem we may face and because of my lack of knowledge, lack of my own facilities and no way to realistically market foals, much as I would have loved a little Cookie to keep after I sold her to her new family where she's teaching little ones to ride. As for the new mare, don't know her potential yet and the same concerns as before also still apply. Trying to be a responsible, yet amatuer horse owner. betsy
|
|
|
Post by maremidwife on Mar 26, 2007 12:23:17 GMT -5
Yes, there is LOTS of misinformation out there.
originally posted by risingrainbow "It was also suggested on the old thread that the mare should have had an abortion when the twins were detected at 6.5 months. That, too, is not an option that I am aware of, nor could I find information on the web. To the contrary, I found information suggesting mid or late term abortion is dangerous in the mare. The major vet hospitals here would not be involved in such a procedure."
The twins in question were not "detected" at 6.5 months, but "still there" then. Even so, aborting fetuses at 6.5 months is WAY less dangerous than attempting to deliver them at term, and ALL vet hospitals would do that rather than allow a twin pregnancy to continue. It does NOT get any safer, only more dangerous with each passing month. Twins that abort even at 9 months rarely cause a problem as their size is so small, they are easily delivered.
originally posted by risingrainbow "This quote above for example about dealing with one twin with an injection. I've not been able to find any information on the Internet or from talking with a number of vets about any kind of mid term or late term method of disposing of one twin by injection or any other means and preserving the second foal.
Wapakoneta, OH is 8 hours from Cornell University. They were doing this procedure at least by 1990. It is done in MANY smaller more regional vet practices now with a high success rate. I checked it out last year for one of my mares. I have several practices offering this within 2 hours from me including Blue Ridge Vet - Dr David Barry. The cost as quoted was $500. last year. This is MUCH less than even a weeks worth of post foaling flushing and infusing treatments.
originally posted by risingrainbow "There is a procedure to eliminate twins that involves a needle being placed into the brain of one of the twins and aspirating the matter. That procedure must be done early in the first trimester. And neither of these schools vet hospitals does this technique. "
Early in the first trimester, you can pinch a twin, unless they are right on top of each other, and you can still pinch, but an increased chance of losing both. That is why at that point, you wait to see of one eliminates within a few months on it's own. (85% will if that close) Injections are done when the fetuses are larger, not in the first few weeks. You can still abort with Lutalyse injections at about 5 months - probably for about $30.
re: financial issues Obviously the longer you wait, the more it costs. A foaling mare that is attempting to deliver twins can be taken to a vet's facility that has a hoist. MANY small private vets are equipped. The costs are not like a large surgical facility. We all make financial decisions, and the decision to breed a mare is not one to be taken lightly. Losing a horse is also a financial loss and an emotional one. I am not sure why anyone would breed if the mare's value is not enough to justify some expense to save her. It may in fact be less to load her in the trailer and go to the vet when she starts labor, than having a long emergency call to the farm. Also, if we choose to breed on limited finances, we may have to make choices in giving up other things to cover needed vet care. That may include computers, internet connections, show expenses, buying more horses, etc.
|
|
|
Post by mamamare on Mar 26, 2007 12:28:36 GMT -5
Greetings all,
This is my first post on the boards.
I had a mare that was diagnosed very late (9 months) in 1999. She had bagged up early and started to drip milk. We took her to our local veterinary hospital and had a trans abdominal ultrasound done that showed twins — one in each horn, approximately equal in size. It was recommended to me by the repro staff to electively abort the mare in the clinic for her own safety. I opted to follow the advice of those vets. The mare was injected with clenbuterol and shaped up as a normally foaling mare might in preparation of a normal foaling. She aborted the twins 3 days after the injection. At the time the major worries were dystocia (there was none) and retention of the placentas (they were passed quickly and safely). I was glad that the mare delivered safely and went on to have future foals.
I do not mean to second guess by posting here, but merely wish to give my own experience.
More on the elimination of twins:
|
|
bndranch
Global Moderator
Tractor Tire Kicker
Sleep tight my sweet Larkin.....02/08/07-02/11/07
Posts: 1,488
|
Post by bndranch on Mar 26, 2007 13:19:08 GMT -5
The twins in question were not "detected" at 6.5 months, but "still there" then. I will say first hand that I know very little about twinning except it does happen far too often. Sassy was ultra-sounded 6 times and it wasn't until the 6th ultra-sound at 6 1/2 months that the twins were found. Second of all I had a GOOD friend of mine too ultra-sound her mare for twins at the right time. It was a confirmed singleton pregnancy. However at 7 months the mare went into labor and aborted twin foals. She was devistated and not only that the mare ended up retaining her placenta, getting lamnitis and eventually passed away. This owner did everything she knew of and it was the VETS fault it was not detected.
|
|
toria
Fly Swatter
Posts: 4
|
Post by toria on Mar 26, 2007 13:38:24 GMT -5
this is my first post, as I have been lurking for a long time....just wanted to say thanks to all who are lending their knowledge on this subject, it is fascinating to read!
|
|
wolfdenfarm
Stall Mucker
Flirting Cove filly 07'
Posts: 38
|
Post by wolfdenfarm on Mar 26, 2007 22:45:22 GMT -5
I will second maremidwife re: Cornell was successfully injecting one fetus to save the other in 1990. Actually, they successfully did it in 1988 with a client's mare - it was "experimental" then. I would imagine it has become much more common and better modified almost twenty years later.
One of my mares had a "bug" of some sort at six months of pregnancy which caused her to go off her feed and spike a temperature. She responded to antibiotics, Banamine, and Bute, but I feared for the baby. When the vet came to palpate, he couldn't feel the foal because at that stage of the pregnancy, it is way up and forward toward the ribcage. I asked about ultrasound and he said that if he couldn't feel the foal, he couldn't ultrasound it. Everything else felt normal (tone, cervix, etc.) and the mare is now nearing her due date. I don't see how the twins were only detected at six months if they are normally out of reach at this point -- unless an ultrasound was done at a University or facility that had a BIG sonogram machine that could do it externally.
I have had twins several times. A few happened back in the late 80's when our vet didn't have an ultrasound machine, and none of them ended well. The most recent twin conceptions I have had, have had one pinched, or the pregnancy aborted. I refuse to put a mare through the stress and resulting tragedy ever again.
When you watch your vet resuscitate a premie twin three times, and then see your vet cry when you lose it, it has a huge impact on your decision making processes after that regarding twins.
|
|
|
Post by mythicfriesians on Mar 27, 2007 0:01:42 GMT -5
I have a fair bit of experience with foaling, as well as a fair bit of formal taining, and have thankfully never had to deal with twins myself. But I have a friend who has two mares that regularly double ovulate and produce twin pregnancies, so I'll give my insight.
If you find a twin pregnancy early enough - PINCH IT! You are better off aborting both pregnancies than just waiting it out.
Having participated in countless ultrasounds, I can certainly see how any vet, regardless of skill level, could miss a twin pregnancy. Especially if the position of the second embryo is at a bad angle! And if the vet doesn't ultrasound often, then there is an even higher chance. So I think that the chance of a twin pregnancy going undetected is just not that uncommon, and through no fault of the owner. We do depend on our vets for so much, and even the best vet is still human, and therefore, fallible.
The trouble comes with dealing with mares known to be carrying twins past the point where they can be safely pinched.
Yes, aborting the twins at 6 months, or even 8 or 9 months, does carry risk. But the risk is so much more if the mare carries those twins to term. The decision is a very personal one and can only be made by the mare's owner.
If the decision is made to let the mare carry to term, then the owner has to go in knowing the risks and being prepared for them. Many breeders (myself definately included) operate on very tight budgets, and can not afford lengthy vet stays. But the cost of a vet clinic stay, or a c-section, needs to be weighed against the loss of the mare. Because that is the very possible result of a mare trying to give birth to twins.
Some times twin foals are simply unavoidable - we do everything we can to prevent them, but we can only do so much. My biggest worry is simply that people try to beat the odds and intentionally let twin pregnancies continue - please, please don't put any mare through that kind of trauma. It is never worth it.
Allison
|
|
|
Post by onthedeck on Mar 27, 2007 1:03:53 GMT -5
Time out for a second. Vets are humans too. They make mistakes like all of us do. Don't be so quick to blame the vet entirely. Mistakes happen. When twins are detected, no matter what stage, whatever steps should be taken to ensure that the pregnancy is a singleton. Sometimes that means terminating if it's late term.
|
|