Sabinos anyone?

[brookhaven]

Just curious as to why it is called Sabino gene and not Overo? I know the pinto patterns are confusing, but do Arabians not carry LWO and that's why it's Sabino? Trying to learn all this color genetics stuff. Thanks!

Edited: I've changed the name of this thread since there seems to be a lot of folks interested in color patterns in all breeds, not just Arabians!!!

[bndranch]

Sabino is color pattern of the Overo same as with paints. There are different patterns to overo and so the word overo is actually pretty misleading. There are Frame overos (which is what the OLW gene comes from), all TRUE frames are positive for the lethal white gene. Sabino is another overo term as the color pattern is different from a frame. However some horses can be a carrier of both the sabino and frame gene. Then there is the splashed white overo as well. Sabino is I believe the only pattern associated with purebred arabs.
It is actually really fasinating as many people say that a horse displaying a blaze with white socks is a CARRIER of the sabiano gene. I believe my tobiano mare Sweet Pea is a carrier of both the tobiano and the sabino gene. My overo mare is a carrier of the sabino gene for sure but could also be a carrier of the frame gene, we will not know this until I test her for lethal white.
Even the appy people want the sabino gene there as it help express their coat patterns as well (by what I am hearing). If you go to www.apha.com they have a great run down of overo patterns. Also another great site is www.equinecolor.com (on the sabino page Sailors sire is actually listed there with a picture!!!)
Hope that helps a little!
Brittany
there is ALOT more to it some of which I dont know and some of which its just too much to write about here!!!!

[brookhaven]

Thanks! Next question though...why would it be Sabino as opposed to Tovero? I have a colt that is, I thought, tovero, homozygous for tobiano, has blue eyes, belly spot, sabino roaning, jagged margins on his spots but should I call him Sabino?


I will check out the sites. I've been to equine color, I think. Will try the other one too!

[bndranch]

Tovero again is a "newer" term used in APHA. So many people assume immediately that if they cross a tobiano with an overo (of whatever pattern) they will get a tovero and that isn't the case. A tovero will show characteristics of both gene's (APHA does a fairly good job of explaining the different aspects of each). Now with Sweet Pea she is not of overo linage at all. She just displays characteristics of a sabino which can be found in solid horses as well. Some people lump the sabino trait into the overo but don't say that your appy has "overo" then all you know what will break loose LOL. Sabino is just the gene that gives the white its extra ooommmph in a way I guess.
Now your little guy by the picture above I would call him a tobiano, but he would be a carrier of the sabino gene. I personally don't see any overo characteristics (according to APHA) to classify him as a tovero, except the blue eye.
Below is actually from the APHA site.
The sabino pattern is also a great imitator, and some of these horses are nearly perfect mimics of tobiano or frame overo. This adds to the confusion of the sabino pattern. When the sabino pattern is minimally expressed, the horse usually has four white socks and a blaze. Usually there is some betrayal of the fact that these are not the usual white marks on horses, due to some ragged edge or narrow and long extension up the leg.

[h2opony]

Brookhaven I am part of a color genetics board if you give me permission to post a picture of him over there they would have him figured out in two minutes! Pretty cool people over there!

[tinypony]

hey skye would you mind sending them some of my mare?? i'll pm them to you.

[amby]

They should put a picture of Casper on the Equine color site. He is a maximally expressed sabino. Basically freaked his breeder out when he was born. LOL which is why I got him.
I love equine genetics, they are so interesting.

[Steph @ Elements]

Sorry that I took so long to answer!

As was already said, "sabino" is one of 3 types of overo. It is NOT caused by the same genes in all breeds of horses though. In the years since I discovered and fell in love with the sabino pattern, I have done thousands of hours of research and seem to have a fairly decent grasp of what we need to produce it relatively consistently. ;D

One, bald faces and high white stockings are NOT needed to produce a sabino. I have seen one mare with not a SPEC of white on her have a WILD sabino! He was more marked than Sailor! Unfortunately, he was killed at about 2 weeks old by a pack of wild dogs. (Not here).

Another thing that seems to hold true in the Arabians is that breeding sabino to sabino will often "shut off" the expression! The best results that we've had have been to find mares with lacy socks, SOME face white (in most cases) and at least ONE parent who has produced a sabino. This actually helps as so many people have bred AWAY from the white markings in Arabians that we can find better quality mares in most cases that are NOT sabino, then breed them to aquality sabino stallion for great quality sabino foals. Too many breeders out there are JUST breeding for the pattern and are producing ill tempered, poorly conformed horses with the sabino pattern. Breeders like that will unfortunately mar the forward progress in getting the general Arabian person to accept the sabino pattern in QUALITY animals. <sigh>

We purchased a stallion with absolutely top-notch bloodlines from lines PROVEN both in the ring AND to produce color to cross with our well-marked mares, plus we have several stallions from our own lines that we will use with our "solid" mares. ;D

There is NOTHING more satisfying than when the mare foals an absolutely top-notch sabino that you KNOW is Nationals quality regarless of the color or pattern. ;D

Steph

[wisteriafarms]

When I learned that the arabian stallion that I work with is a rabicano, it got me interested in these types of markings. I have joined different groups hoping to learn more about them. I have seen people say (not here) that some blazes, or some socks, can make a horse a sabino. I just don't see where that dividing line is, and am now more confused than ever lol. So thank you to those that are trying to explain it here. I was wondering too, Brookhaven...thanks for asking .

Julie

[brookhaven]

Thanks Steph. I must say until I saw your horses, I had never seen an Arabian that was so loudly marked. I do find the color genetics thing fascinating and am still learning. Just when I think I have it....wrong...
Skye, you have my permission to post Blazers photo. It will be interesting to hear

[Steph @ Elements]

"Sabino" has become the catch phrase of the day so-to-speak, so a lot of people really have no true understanding. There are many self-proclaimed experts, of which I could be considered one... At least I have the research and the results to back up most of what I tell people. To the people that were breeding sabino Arabians before anyone knew what a "sabino" was in the Arab world, it takes disconnected white or white above the knee/hock to be a sabino. High stockings may indicate that a horse could PRODUCE a sabino, as could a blaze and lower lip white, but it does NOT make them sabino themselves. There is a registry for sabino horses of ALL breeds that has very defined guidelines. Too many people are calling their horses sabino these days just to try to sell them or get peoples attention.

[brookhaven]

Here's a filly I had tested for the Sabino1 gene out of pure curiosity since I understand it's a relatively new test. She is heterozygous for Tobiano (nT) and for Sabino (nSb1). Both her parents were loud pintos with what I would describe as sabino markings so now I guess everyone should be confused...LOL!!

[bndranch]

I do know that there is a test for Sabino but it tests for a rarer form of it is my understanding. The more common gene of sabino there is no test. So just because your filly came back negative for sabino only means she is negative for that particular gene however could have a different form (at least my understanding).

[brookhaven]

She came back positive for the Sabino1 and Tobiano gene, just heterozygous for both not homozygous and if I read correctly from the link you gave me to APHA (and thanks by the way), Sabino can't be or isn't homozygous. I assume she should throw loud babies though and can't wait to see! (But she's only a yearling so....)So interesting and so confusing...

[christine721]

This is most fascintating! I have a dun apha mare with minimal white - high white stockings, little belly spots and disconnected white on her head, lower lip. Papers say overo - her dad was a very white roan overo from the old painted robin line (Pappy Cash). Her dam was a gruella mare with little or no white, AQHA Boston Mac. Could my mare be a carrier of the sabino gene as well as overo? She also has roaning or speckles on her tail top and on her belly that are not from injury or anything. Her spots have the overo frame pretty sure. Here is a link to her pic. if it works. www.pbase.com/christine721/image/66657746