Sabinos anyone?

[brookhaven]

Since I'm still learning all this color stuff I'm not the one to reply, but sure is a beautiful mare and in my inexperienced opinion, if she has the roaning and the lip spot she could be a carrier...I guess , maybe ...well could be ...don't really know ....lol

[christine721]

Hey thanks for looking! ;D She is sure fat in that picture but it is the best one I had to show her lip white and belly spot, there is another one under there too. That is what pasture will do I spose. She is fat and sassy! We will see what others say about any possible sabino traits or genetics.

[brookhaven]

Hope I haven't confused everyone, but changed the topic from "Questions for Steph", since there seems to be alot of interest in color patterns for all breeds so everyone jump in with photos and questions. If a moderator is viewing and can move this thread to the Question and Annswer forum, that would be fine too.

[tinypony]

now you've all got me really interested lol. my mare has some of the sabino characteristics (or atleast possibly) that have been mentioned here.

lip marking:


spots on ear:


roaning on flank:


leg markings:



she also has some spots/white on her belly but i can't find any pictures of that..... i'm wondering if i actually have any to begin with??? anyways i'm extremely curious now but i'm no expert...... can anyone out there help?

[christine721]

From what i am gathering, those would be the signs! Im no experrt either. Very familiar flank roaning and the jagged white socks, and the lip white.

[h2opony]

QUOTED FROM AN EQUINE GENETICS BOARD:

"Sabino (Sah-BEE-no) is a white spotting pattern that is usually included with Frame and Splash and given the generic name, Overo. This is because it displays pattern characteristics which can be very similar to either of these patterns.

Interestingly enough, in South America when the term Overo is used, this is the pattern they are referring to. The term Sabino comes from northern Europe and in Spanish means "pale red" or sometimes "roan". Sabino in South America specifically means flea bitten Grey, especially Grey that has red flecks instead of black. In the United States it is a term used for this particular pattern and although it may resemble Roan or Grey at times, it should not be confused with either as it is totally separate.

Sabino is very prevalent and occurs in many, many breeds such as: purebred Thoroughbreds, Tennessee Walkers, Akhal-Tekes, American Baskir Curly, Spanish Mustangs, Quarter Horses and Morgans, just to name a few. There are actually very few breeds in which Sabino does not occur - Icelandic Horses being one.

Clydesdales and Shires are exclusively Sabino, although these breeds calls it "Roan". Some breeds such as the Gelderland are also almost exclusively Sabinos, having the large facial white, chinspot and high leg white as one expression that is found with this pattern. "Occasionally skewbalds are found" (quote from Horse Breeds of the World) these most likely being Sabino. Skewbald is the European term used for a horse that is any solid color and white in a Pinto type pattern. Black and whites are called Piebald.

One Sabino characteristic is a white marking on the face which can vary from a few white hairs to a large blaze. Anoter very common characteristic of Sabino is white on the lower lip and/or chin, ranging from small to large. Some very minimal Sabinos may not have this characteristic white spotting but will have other traits of the pattern. Even though facial white is common, even to the point of causing a "bald" or "apron" marking at times, blue eyes not considered a trait of the pattern and if it does occur in conjunction with Sabino it is usually a trait of a certain line of horses and these horses usually only have one blue eye, not two. (The Khemosabi line in Arabians is very prevalent with Sabino, some of which have blue eyes), or it is being caused by another gene.

Leg white that ranges from a coronet to a high stocking is also common. There really is no rule as to how many legs are white, but generally at least one will have some white on it. Patches on the knees, that are not connected to any other white, are also a trait that can occur with Sabino.

Another common characteristic of Sabino is roaning, this is the most minimal expression of Sabino. This can vary from a small amount of roanin concentrated in an one area of the horse to roaning that covers the entire body. It's also common for roaning to be found on the head and legs, especially if a white marking is present. This roaning will vary in extent from very minimal to very extreme and occurs to some extent in all breeds which have Sabino.

Body spotting is can range from very minimal that usually begins in the belly area to maximum effects involving the entire body. The minimal expressions can be seen as roaning, to speckled areas to larger white patches. Most Sabinos are flecked or roan and this is especially true when a horse has extensive spotting. Towards the more maximum expression of the pattern, some Sabinos can look very similar to Splashed Whites, the difference being that Sabinos generally have some roaning to the edges of their white. Splash spots (without Sabino present) should be crisp and clean.

Sabino can also cause roaned areas that may not be present at birth and grow with age. The mare to the left is a yearling in the photo, in January 2002 there was no indication that there would be any kind of white marking in this location. As she shed her winter hair the spot appeared and kept getting larger and larger. This photo was taken in June 2002. She's also developing slight roaning on her side and back. The mare is a minimal Tobiano that has no body spotting (other than the roaned spot) no facial white and 3 small socks with ermine spots. Her coat color is Silver Bay.

At it's most maximum expression Sabino will cause the horse to be totally white, if any color remains it's usually as roan or speckled on areas such as the ears, tail base, chest and flanks, these areas may not have colored hair, it may just be the
colored skin showing through the white hair. In the past, a horse colored like this was said to be "Dominant White". This dominant gene, labled W, was thought to be lethal when homozygous, like Frame. The problem with this theory was that many horses who were "Dominant White" didn't have the necessary "Dominant White" parent, the rule of dominant genes being that at least one parent must have it for the foal to have it. Research has shown that these "Dominant White" horses who
are usually born from non-white parents are really Sabinos with the maximum expression of the
pattern. The theory of the "Dominant White" gene has been left in the past, especially since there has never been any scientific evidence to support that it exists.

Sabino is the most common cause of solid colored horses with "chrome" or horses that have lots of facial white and high leg white but no body spots, although it's common to see small to large belly spots. These horses are thought to be "solid" with "normal" white markings, but are in fact Sabinos and depending on the horse they are mated with they could be just as likely to produce a Sabino foal as another Sabino with more pattern expressed. An example of this is the many Quarter Horses that are minimal expression Sabinos, these horses can and do produce full patterned "Paint" foals that are called "crop-outs". Sabino also very commonly mixed with Frame and Splashed White in Miniature Horses, American Paints and Pintos.

Some in the equine genetics community that believe that Sabino is a polygenic trait which means there are more than just one gene controlling it's expression. This group also is inclined to believe that Sabino is the cause for all white markings in horses, the polygenic theory would support this claim. After studying Sabino in many different breeds, I am inclined to be one of those that believes both theories. Further research by breeders and scientists will hopefully shed some more light on this fascinating pattern.

Due to Clydesdales & Shires being exclusively Sabino, it's very unlikely that Sabino is lethal in homozygous form as many horses in those breeds are very sure to be homozygous for the Sabino allele."

[h2opony]

TinyPony Mollie is Sabino with Frame... if you ever breed her make sure you test here for Lethal White

[brookhaven]

Thanks Skye. So in summary, from what I gather, Sabino is a good trait to have if you want your horse to have chrome, can be homozygous without carrying the LWO gene, and seems to be prevalent in a lot of breeds and common to Clydesdales and Shires.

[brookhaven]

Here is another filly, by the same sire as the first one posted, who I believe is Sabino as well. She has no spotting but is entirely roaned, has two irregular socks behind, blaze with lip/chin spot. Both parents are pinto. She is clipped in these photos and appears palomino (due to the roaning), but in regular coat she is sorrel with flax mane and tail. I probably will have her genetically tested for Sabino just to be sure. Again, can't wait to see her foals, but she is coming two...wish these horses were like rabbits and foaled a little faster...LOL

[lilpondarosamini]

How and where do you get them tested and about what does it cost? Also what do your request to get the testing done?

[Steph @ Elements]

If you refer to testing for the sabino 1 gene, there are several labs that do the test, but keep in mind that many OBVIOUS sabinos are coming back as negative for the Sb1 gene...

[wisteriafarms]

Alicia, does Mollie have any white at the base of her tail? If she does, she could also be Rabicano. Rabicanos often have heavy roaning in the flanks like Mollie does, although it isn't always heavy and can actually be quite faint.

Just thought I'd add another aspect to the confusion lol.

I will try to take some photos of the stallion I work with who is Rabicano (his owner has given me permission to share). I think Rabicano markings are very pretty as well.

Julie

[tinypony]

wow who would have thought mollie was so many different colors??? lol. thanks SO much skye and all those who have contributed this is so interesting!!
julie she actually has some interesting tail colors as well (of course :-)) From the outside, her tail appears brown but if you lift the top layer, it's silver/gray. not completely white but a completely different color. I don't think I have any pictures but I'll definately try to get some to post. thanks again everyone!!!

also skye thanks for the warning about the lethal white -- i have no plans to breed mollie now but had always considered it and never even thought she may carry the lethal white gene.

[risingrainbow]

OK, now I'm really confused. I thought I had an idea about this and now I'm lost. I've been told by friends who breed for color patterns that my horse carries the sabino gene. But I think I read that a horse doesn't have to have it, to produce it. Is that right?

The only thing I'm really sure about is I have lots of babies here with what I would call "muddy" markings - they are a nightmare to draw because there's not a clear line, the white swirls in with the color. To my understanding that is a sabino expression. Is that right?

My stallion does not have those kinds of markings but has babies out of all of my mares that have them. He's never been bred to any half Arabian mares to produce color but his sire has a really high rate of procuding color on both Tobiano and Overo mares. The same for his grandsire. My guess is that he would do the same because he does produce those muddy markings.

I'm confused, too, about how you decide what you want to breed to for the sabino Arabians. If you don't breed them to each other, do you breed a horse that doesn't have it but produces it, to one that is it? Does that make sense, or did I get wierd there?

[tinypony]

well i'm definately not an expert so someone please correct me if i'm wrong but from what i've learned about this the past couple days and what i know about genetics in general, i think i can say for a fact that in order to pass on the sabino gene, atleast one parent must be a carrier. as for the "muddy" markings, from what you're describing, i think it could be a number of different things - possibly a variation of roaning??? but then again i may have a different picture in my head from what you're actually talking about.... maybe that helped??